Curse

Katari · May 02, 2006, 10:57 PM // 22:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaserLight

Strength doesn't apply on autoattacks? Oh, how delicious.

Hm hm...how delicious indeed. You're saying that the only reason a Warrior is better than an Assassin with that axe is because the Warrior can get the four extra mastery? Not saying Assassins should pick up axes, but whee...is there any doubt that Critical Strikes is by far the superior attribute now? Especially given some of the capabilities Assassins have - in PvE, at least, I've done fine with sticking it out with a target when necessary by spamming hell out of "Watch Yourself!" 90AL for me since I use condition-reduction armor instead of +15AL while attacking, but with that +15AL armor and "Watch Yourself!", you can easily match a Warrior's basic AL while swinging. 105AL while autoattacking. Even Sentinel's armor doesn't beat that, and apparently there is no reason at all to get to the required 13 Strength aside from using Sentinel's armor.

Oh how delicious, how delicious...I may have to switch armor now. Or at least do so when it's cheaper. 105 attacking AL, that's more than enough to stick to a target and finish what little your skill stream leaves. And with Strength being the way it is, and Double Strikes, Assassins are almost bound to deal equivalent damage, if not greater.

Warrior armor: 80 +20vs phys +shield +absorbsion runes +damage reduction, before defensive skills.
Assasin armor: 70 +15 while attacking
The problem with saying "See look! I can use WY! and have lots of armor! is that you're using a warrior skill just to match what a warrior alredy has. Many many PvE warriors use WY! on top of what they have, and it doesn't seem like strong play to put WY! on the skillbar of a PvP sin.

My assumption reguarding warriors dealing more DPS is as follows.With each at 16, it should look something like Hammer>Axe>Sword>Dagger (and that's assuming reasonable crit mastery) in terms of auto-attack DPS. People keep saying that sins don't tank in PvE, but that's what you'd have to do to take advantage of melee DPS.

A_Muppet · May 03, 2006, 03:28 PM // 15:28

Um... at risk of sounding rude, that's kinda bollocks to an extent.

I find Assassins are good at picking off the lightly armoured things-the spellcasters, the rangers. Against warriors they leave much to be desired, but that's expected. If assassins could tank as well as a, er, tank then why bother playing warrior at all?

Yukito Kunisaki · May 03, 2006, 04:04 PM // 16:04

LaserLight definitely has the upperhand in this evolution of a thread...

Sorry DieInBasra, but you're assumptions are more and more working against you...

Ok, so you say condition stacking is bad because the enemy will bring counters for it right?

In that case, let's bring your entire team in to do damage but not involve any conditions...

Now you may seem to have the advantage since you don't deal any conditions and the enemy team has brought some useless skill [anti-condition] to deal with your almighty team that uses nothing but raw damage.

What's this? They're using conditions and hexes on you while also doing damage...

If you weigh a realistic situation, YOU MUST HAVE CONDITIONS if your team is going to do anything.

The more problems the enemy team has to deal with, the better your chances of winning.

Conditions cause problems.

If you bring a team designed only with killing and damage in mind, then uh, you'll be easy to stop. A few prot skills and you're done in terms of massive damage...

Now if you use a combination of disruption through conditions, hexes, effects, anti-defense, etc. To me, that's an obvious win right there. The enemy can't do anything and you're killing them easily...

If you think only Dazed and Deep Wound kill, show me how you survive if your monks are stuffed, and you've got a VERY long lasting poison/bleeding duration on your hp bar... [and you've been fighting for a while already...]

These "that trick doesn't work" argument is getting redundant and I like Assassins. I like my warrior better but there's no reason to slam an assassin just cause they do damage differently.

DPS? Why would a sin want to do dps? lol... Sins just need to land a gigantic spike and thanks to double striking, why would they need an IAS? If you boost their Double Strikes by 50% or so [totally feasible with skill/elites], that means you're doing a 2x strike every other swing... Can Frenzy Match that? Hell no. At least while doing your 2x strikes, you're not eating double damage...

Both classes have their strength and weaknesses but some of us here have forgotten the basics...

DPS isn't an issue if it's only 3 seconds...

That's a spike. Real dps should be taken over a much longer period of time... 26 dps in 3s. is pathetic. 290 dps in 1 second? Hey, that's sexy damage buddy...

You can go ahead and say hexes / conditions are 'useless' since they will be countered. You fight my team using only raw damage and I'll fight yours using a strong blend of every disruption possibility in the book. This headbutt a wall with damage theory makes one sound dumber and dumber by the second... You fight without hexes/conditions, that's fine by me...

The Chimpster · May 03, 2006, 04:16 PM // 16:16

My argument:

Assassins are more fun to play :P

Thank you goodnight.

Yukito Kunisaki · May 03, 2006, 04:23 PM // 16:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Chimpster

My argument:

Assassins are more fun to play :P

Thank you goodnight.

Best Argument evar!

Sometimes I wonder why people just don't accept this...

I like this class, I know how to play this class, is that enough?

I also wonder if people try to use these mechanics to prove a point and expend much time and energy on it. I have other things in life to worry about more important than number crunching a vid game mechanic so I leave it to the gamer gurus to do that for me.

Can't we just have fun with our respective class? yeesh...

twicky_kid · May 03, 2006, 04:26 PM // 16:26

Warriors are a better choice even when it comes to dmg. A warrior can pound on you and charge the adrenaline. You don't really know when he is going to spike you. Because he can tank the dmg it makes his spikes more consistant. If 1 attack fails to land it doesn't really affect a warrior. He can use his follow up skills and keep on pounding with normal dmg.

An assassin has to rush in spike then get out. Any disruption and the chain will not land. He cannot stand and tank the dmg so you know when a spike is coming. Imagine a warrior overextended while using healing sig the entire battle. Zins are going to be dead in a flash with no way to help them or heal.

When a Zin is not spiking what else can he do? Just stand there for another 15 seconds waiting on his skills to recharge? A warrior can still be dealing dmg while the adrenaline is building keeping up the pressure.

Warrior FTW.

glountz · May 03, 2006, 04:38 PM // 16:38

Guys, please.
Don't want to begin a flame war, but when Laserlight started to say that sins could match wars armor, he made a fool of himself. Wars beat Sins AL every day with just EQUIPMENT.
Saying that conditions stacking is a good thing shows also your ignorance of the metagame. It simply doesn't work in serious PvP.
As for "gigantic spike". Errh.... I find them quite unimpressive, to say the least, compared to warriors ones. Most warrs spikes deals +42 damage at 16 weapon mastery. It is also the case of some Sins' skills.
But for tremendous energy cost/recharge time. And dagger's damage is ridiculous compared to sword or axe, so finally, a spike with an axe is better than with daggers, simply because of the base damage.
Sins have already horrible weaknesses, they are easily shutdown, easily killed, their daggers deals ridicoulous base damage for a "two handed" weapon. I didn't find warrs spikes less powerful than Sins ones. It seems that maxed critical strikes could outdamage warrs DPS, but it has yet to be tested. It would terribly disappoint me if it was not the case.
As for double attacks. They are rare, and taking the elite just to increase them is IMO a waste of a skill slot.
Even if sins outdamaged warriors with maxed critical strike, it would force you to play a particular build just to do your job.

Yet, we have to wait the numbers before we can discuss of this.

jpsantos20 · May 03, 2006, 05:46 PM // 17:46

Assassins have a better dmg output than a warrior has IMO. Tho they attack for less dmg, they attack faster and with Dagger Mastery they have a chance to hit for double strike and when u they hit their combo perfectly they can have more dmg than a warrior can ever have. Yes i do agree that Assasins have a lower AL than the Warriors do, way low. But assassins are not made to be tanked with or go head on with a warrior, thats just dumb or retarded. There are skills that can make assassins better, I am now trying to find a Skill set to fight a warrior on 1 v 1 and it wont involve me staying in 1 area and sti there and go toe to toe with a warrior. It will take some time but i honestly think it can be done.

twicky_kid · May 03, 2006, 05:50 PM // 17:50

All I have to say is 2 words and I'm done with this arguement.

Evisc + Executioner's

Until a Zin can match that duo right there they will be useless in serious PvP. Until a zin can do 300+ dmg with 2 skills don't even try to compare a war to a zine for dmg. There is no comparesion.

Zins do not attack faster than a sword or axe. It is the same speed with the chance to do a double strike.

Xellos · May 03, 2006, 06:22 PM // 18:22

According to Guild Wiki, 16 dagger mastery gives 1.00 attack speed. 16 dagger mastery is obviously a key requirement.

Sins are definately spikers, but in serious pvp, more-so for their npc killing abilities. Unlike a warrior, you generally can't get in and out of a enemy's base just to kill an archer or two.

The sin isn't revolutionary to the game, but the teleporting capabilities it carried over are. Everyone offensively is using them now, and I suspect if given the right build, even defensively they will be used. Teleportation is the new way to play the game, and until people can react to 3 melee classes just blinking in and popping your teamate, it's going to stay that way.

Dawn Godtreader · May 03, 2006, 06:27 PM // 18:27

First of all, and i haven't read the whole thread, i would like to see the attack speed of a sin and the attack speed of a war.

Wars have the higher damage, and probably more dps. But wars cant spike pressure like a sin can.

With my build Golden phoenix strike, horns of the ox, falling spider, twisting fangs. I do +132 on my normal attacks with 15 dagger mastery not to mention deep wound poison bleeding and a kd, -7 degen not to mention they now have low life. Critical hits effect all attacks so theres a chance that any of my attaks will crit hit doing even more damage.

Some of you say that it will get healed by mend condition..so what in the meantime someone else is taking damage while that monk is healing and getting rdy to strike again, maybe same target maybe not. a monk cant be everywhere at once while a assassin is doing major quick damage somewhere the rest of the team is attacking this guy over here.

Dps on a war might be more damage but whoever sits there and lets my assassin beat on them is stupid cuz even if i dont do as much dps, the dps i do do is considerable, pressuring with the higher critical hit rate and higher double hit which may result in a crit hit also not to mention faster attack speed, when im not comboing.

damage output ill give to wars they can attack constantly and keep on attacking and hurting. but even a eviserate/exe spike doesnt do the damage i do with my combo to anything.

all in all
dps wars win
combos sins win

but either way to underestimate the sin in anything is a deathwish, and may i be the one with my dagger in your back.

Timing is everything sins aren't gonna be attacking whoever has the defense they are gonna be assassinating the enemies the monk cant get to in time.

Energywise i never had a energy problem on my sin ever.

Btw i'll challenge any war to a 1v1. We'll see who wins then ^^

Dawn Godtreader · May 03, 2006, 06:37 PM // 18:37

Ok attack speed of a sin is 1.00 the chance for a double strike at 16 dagger mastery is 32% if you add locusts fury thats 52%.

I hope ensign has done this math alrdy my head hurts owie

what is the crit hit rate with max daggers and ohh lets say 10 crit hits?

Put it all together and your dps goes way up.

with a 50% chance of double strike and 1.00 attack speed your alrdy 3 attacks every 2 hits basically and i think the crit hit rate would be a third so atleast one of those hits would be a crit hit..

I dunno what the attack speed of a frenzy war is but i doubt that there could be much difference between the wars 2 hits and the sins 3 hits.

fallot · May 03, 2006, 06:41 PM // 18:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xellos

According to Guild Wiki, 16 dagger mastery gives 1.00 attack speed. 16 dagger mastery is obviously a key requirement.

16 dagger mastery effectively gives 1.00 attack speed when you are not using any attack skills (since you cant double strike on them). Without an IAS stance, the Assassins combos are too slow, and the longer ones become useless. So its not a spike class, its not a damage class, what is it ?

IMO the teleports should have been linked to the Assassin primary attribute to give this primary a little more worth.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dawn Goodreader

Ok attack speed of a sin is 1.00

Its 1.33 per second base, just like swords and axes.

Dawn Godtreader · May 03, 2006, 06:55 PM // 18:55

I was talking about with 16 dagger mastery its 1.00. And it seems that no good attack based assassin should have any less then 16. Assassin combos aren't to slow for the damage they deal and the conditions they drop it would at the same time is faster than any other class can do this.

Slower or not it kills fast and sins dont have to attack the target. You would have to be a good monk to keep up with a target almost dieing and another target being attacked constantly and not mess up.

I've faced many teams with 2 monks and even they where hard pressed to keep up with the random targets i was attacking and the other targets my teams where attacking.

I can do my combo every 8 seconds im gonna go add up the damage i do with that and see if any war can match that.

fallot · May 03, 2006, 06:59 PM // 18:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dawn Godtreader

I was talking about with 16 dagger mastery its 1.00.

Yes, but then you said that the chance for double strikes was 32%, which implied that this %age was in addition to the 1.00 attacks/sec. The double strikes are what makes this 1.00 (is that even correct ? I didnt calculate) attack per second over time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dawn Goodtreader

I've faced many teams with 2 monks and even they where hard pressed to keep up with the random targets i was attacking and the other targets my teams where attacking.

What kind of team would run with less than 2 monks ?

Kurow · May 03, 2006, 07:02 PM // 19:02

I would like to suggest that assassins are for fast spiking, in that they can execute their combos at any time, as early as they want. They are supposed to get in, get off their combo, and get out. They do this quite well, and an one assassin can easily take a caster down to less than half health with just one combo.

Dawn Godtreader · May 03, 2006, 07:03 PM // 19:03

That i dont know, it may be or it may be that double strike is ADDED to that

do we have any official input here i would really like to get this figured out.

fallot · May 03, 2006, 07:11 PM // 19:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dawn Goodtreader

That i dont know, it may be or it may be that double strike is ADDED to that

do we have any official input here i would really like to get this figured out.

Its perfectly obvious, at 16 dagger mastery, you do more double strikes, which increases your attacks over time, which effectively increases your overall attack rate.

If you didnt double strike at all at 16 dagger mastery, you would have 1.33 attacks per second just like swords and axes.

Lady Lorwinia · May 03, 2006, 07:20 PM // 19:20

I love assassins in arenas. But I'm not sure I would use them alot in GvG.

I run a team arena build with a friend and we kill so many boon prots in less than 5 seconds.

Assassin runs up puts on blackout my conjure ranger shoots dual + punishing and he gets out a combo really fast.

Imo they have way to many counters in GvG.

#1: Bad self heal. You don't want to go ganking Npc's or flag running.
#2: Wards, aegis, blind, diversion, weakness will all completely screw over the assassin. I still prefer warriors in GvG.

#3: They are definetly more of a pressure build. They have no backbone but they do have serious DPS. Basically an Assassin without a good tele skill is a dead assassin. Concentrated fire will bring the assassin to his knees especially if he overextends with his tele. I've seen that so many times.

Example: One team is fleeing back to their base after experiencing a team full of -30dp the assassin teles way ahead of his monks. The opposing team pushes back forward and swallows the assassin. You really have to be careful with that.

fallot · May 03, 2006, 07:54 PM // 19:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Lorwinia

They have no backbone but they do have serious DPS. Basically an Assassin without a good tele skill is a dead assassin. Concentrated fire will bring the assassin to his knees especially if he overextends with his tele. I've seen that so many times.

They have next to no DPS, if they cant consistently attack targets. It seems to be the consensus that they cant. Tele in, combo, tele out is very bad damage per second. DPS vs. dummies isn't the best determinant.